Sentient Media Podcast: Hope and Faith in Activism with Jasmin Singer

Jasmin Singer is co-host of the Our Hen House Podcast, editor at large for VegNews, Vice President of Brand Editorial at Kinder Beauty, author of ‘The VegNews Guide to Being a Fabulous Vegan, TEDx Speaker, mentor at Sentient Media, and all round social justice powerhouse. 

Transcript

Ana Bradley  

Hello, and welcome to the Sentient Media Podcast where we meet the people who are changing the way we think about and interact with the world around us. And today, our guest is the incredible Jasmin Singer. Jasmin has been a friend and a mentor and an advisor with Sentient Media for over two years now, I think. And she is an incredibly inspiring person, she seems to be tireless with all of the pursuits that she follows. And she has been fostering intersectionality within the animal protection movement, which is something that I really identify with, and we’ll be talking about today. She’s the host, she’s also an actor, as well. She’s the co-host of the Our Hen House Podcast, Vice President of brand editorial at Kinder Beauty, and has more than 20 years experience in magazine, book and digital writing, and editing. And her latest book is The Veg News Guide to Being a Fabulous Vegan, which has been endorsed by the likes of Joaquin Phoenix. But the list of accomplishments for you, Jasmin, just goes on and on. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Jasmin Singer  

I’m so excited to be here and talk to you. I’m such a giant fan of Sentient Media and of you. So this is really an honor.

Ana  

The honor is all ours, I just thought it would be good to kind of kick things off by talking a bit about what you’re working on at the moment, like what’s happening in your world these days, Jasmin? 

Jasmin  

You did catch me at a bit of a transition. So I am hopeful that by the time this airs, things have shifted. Because I do feel like when we’re in the middle of transition, we can we sort of feel like a turtle swimming from an island to an island. And I’m somewhere in the middle. But that being said, I am still working on Our Hen House Podcast. We are going strong, Mariann Sullivan and I started it in January of 2010. And we have a small, incredible team of people who do the research and the production as you have as well. So Our Hen House is going strong, we also produce the Animal Law Podcast. And I am working at Veg News in the capacity of Editor at Large, as well as columnist, and Veg News has a forthcoming podcast which at the time we record this, it’s a forthcoming podcast, which I will be hosting. In addition to that, I am working at Kinder Beauty managing their blog and podcast. So that’s going to be shifting soon, possibly by the time that this airs. But I have a habit of staying somewhat involved with places I never fully leave, call my therapist if you want to further discuss that. And so I’m sure that I will still be very involved, I produced the Kinder Beauty podcast and co-host it this coming season. And I’m trying to sell two books right now. So that’s kind of 1000 foot high view. And I’m also busy cuddling my elderly dogs.

Ana  

Which are all over Instagram. If anybody wants to have a look at the fun or trips that they do. They are absolutely adorable. But so you’re essentially you’re like the Podcast Queen then, and you’ve been doing this for such a long time. Have you noticed any changes or any trends? Are you finding that people are more open to I mean, these topics and these podcasts that you’re doing are very heavily kind of in that animal space and animal rights space. Have you noticed people being more open to those kinds of conversations now?

Jasmin  

Yeah, and at Our Hen House definitely animal rights focused and Veg News, it’s more like mainstream vegan, kind of like food, foodie stuff, and at Kinder Beauty it’s more broadly about kindness, but it does relate specifically to vegan beauty. So there’s a few different beats going on. I think that since I started in 2010, with podcasting, things have really shifted from grassroots to more of like food innovation, you might have even noticed that just since you started your podcast like it’s not a shift that’s taken 1,2,3 years. It’s a shift that’s taking maybe 1,2,3 months. And I think that we’re definitely becoming more of a professional sort of mainstream adjacent “movement” if you will, “movement” I put in air quotes because what is it’s not like we get a club card. But that being said, I still love to interview the undercover investigators, the grassroots advocates, people who are in their communities making change. I think veganism and animal rights in general is being taken more seriously. But more so than that the environmental movement has been exploding, quite literally exploding in some cases. And I find that if people aren’t going to get on board with animals and caring about animals, they will probably get on board with caring about the planet, as well as being open to cultivated protein.

Ana  

Such a good point. And it is interesting that you’re saying that it is quite recent because only came into this space. You know, just over two years ago, you and I met right at the start of my time at Sentient Media. And I feel like I’ve noticed an increase in output. And I was like, Is this because I’m now paying attention to it? I’m seeing it everywhere, or is this actually happening?

Jasmin  

Yeah, I think it’s happening. I also do think I am in a bubble to some extent. But I will say that I am taking part in the Veg News brainstorm that is scheduled for this evening, the time when we record this, and it’s a brainstorm for the first issue in 2023. And as I was researching trends for 2023, food trends, lifestyle trends, fashion trends, these were mainstream outlets reporting on the future trends, and every single one of them had something vegan, whether it was like a different type of synthetic leather made from like, some fruit or vegetable as they’re finding or, or it was cultivated protein, as I mentioned earlier, which I think is it’s here. I mean, it is here, it’s going to become more widely available and affordable. Or they were talking about like these electric cars finally going vegan? Because how hypocritical is it when electric cars have leather seats, so I not only think it is becoming more mainstream and professional, but I think it’s it’s seeping into the most mainstream outlets that one could imagine. And honestly, I do think Sentient Media is, is partially responsible for that the work that you’ve done with SEO, and also with kind of creating this, like ethical army of journalists who are then being sprinkled throughout media is extremely powerful. And nobody’s ever done that before. So I do think that even in the two years, you’ve been in this realm, you have done so much. 

Ana  

That’s awesome. Yeah, we have been so overwhelmed by the community that, you know, has just latched on to this idea and what we’re doing, it’s like, it’s awesome to see the output. I think there’s about 600 people in the Writers’ Collective now. And every month, there are more and more stories that they’re publishing and more and more news that’s getting out there. On that note, what was the latest, I mean, you’ve been looking at trends in these particular areas. But what is the latest mainstream story that you saw that actually centred farmed animals?

Jasmin  

Oh, that’s a great question. Let me see. I I recently saw a story about this giant California slaughterhouse shutting down Farmer John’s, I think you’re familiar. And so that was a long time in the making. Of course, there are rumors that it’s just moving. So we’ll see how it shakes out. But when the articles explicitly state that this is not because of animal rights activists, you know that it is, or they probably wouldn’t even be saying it similar to the circus no longer having any animals, though, which is it? Of course, we’re not talking about farmed animals in this case. But those articles covering Ringling Brothers no longer having animals as part of their acts, staying, but it didn’t have to do with the animal rights activists is obviously completely untrue. And it had very much to do with the animal rights activists and many animal rights activists would not care to get the credit. That’s not why we do it. So it’s sort of like, Oh, our work here is done. Good. Well done.

Ana  

Yeah. I mean, on that note of like, activism, and actually like going out, you know, into the streets and doing, you know, protests or, you know, we’ve seen a lot of stuff in the NBA, the games being interrupted, you know, the NBA games, because of the association with the factory farms with the chicken farms, like an often in the media, those activists and those protests that activists have portrayed, you know, unfavorably, but I do feel like this year, that the role of the protester and the role of the animal activist has been represented in a slightly different light, like there’s been mainstream articles coming out saying like, you know, yeah, the the protester has a place and you should be out there like not accepting this kind of suffering and exploitation…

Jasmin  

…which is something that more and more people are doing, and maybe it’s not directly about the animals but I think just the whole idea of getting on the streets is certainly something that Americans are shifting toward as the rights of people with uteruses have been stripped away from us people are very angry. The egregious, racist society that we live in, is infuriating to a lot of people, obviously myself included, and so people are getting on the streets. Now, of course, that’s something animal activists have been doing forever. But because it is a more widely accepted type of speaking out, I think maybe animal activists will be taken more seriously in that regard, or at least I hope so.

Ana  

Yeah, I mean, what we’re touching on here as well with the speaking about the other, you know, social justice issues, like you’re involved in so many different topics and so many different things. And I love on your website, you, you know, you’ve got your little tagline, which is author, editor, speaker, actor, activist, lesbian, vegan. Talk to me about those words. And like simplistically speaking, almost, do you think those words define you?

Jasmin  

I think they partially define me, I think my, the values that I embody also define me. But for sure, in the front-facing way, those are the words that define me. And I will say one of my, one of my drawbacks, one thing I’m not great at is succinctly describing things I do, maybe you’ve noticed, like, when I was writing my first book, which was a my memoir, and people would ask me what it’s about, I would almost not know how to explain what it’s about, because it’s about food and body image and my mother and veganism and you know, getting rid of toxic patterns. Maybe it’s just that it’s so close to me that it’s hard for me to describe it. But I think the same thing is true for the words that I use to describe who I am like, I am a lot of things. And ultimately, I think what it comes back down to, is I am a person in pursuit of authenticity and justice, against all odds.

Ana  

Yeah, I mean, you can, things are complex, and you can’t separate them. And I think, you know, it’s almost like you, we see it in the you know, in the health system, you go to a doctor about one issue, and they want to define it and separate. So, you know, if your pain is in your tummy, you know, well, that’s the area that we’re focusing on, you know, there’s no kind of holistic approach to well, everything’s connected, like, what else could be causing this. And I think that’s kind of what you embody is this idea of how all these different topics, these different things within us, they are connected, but I think some of the words that you use, like “vegan”, “activist” and “lesbian”, those can be triggers for people to lead to an instant kind of judgement or an instant, you know, pigeon-holing. And that is something that you speak about, like really poetically, and eloquently in your TED Talk. And I was wondering if you could talk to me a bit about how you came to realize judgement and preconceptions, were kind of dictating your life and trying to put you in one corner rather than accepting, you know, the whole picture.

Jasmin  

Yeah, thank you. I was hanging out with my 12 year-old niece the other day, and my brother was there. That’s her father. And we were chatting about being bullied. My brother and I were both bullied as kids. And my niece looked very confused. Because she, you know, she and I are very close. And she said, But why you? Do you know, why you and I was like, I guess I was just different in a way and I sort of had a big energy growing up, and that isn’t going to be something that allows a child to fit in, right? They’re going to stick out. And she was perplexed by that. But I think ultimately, the fact that I do stick out is related to those words that you described, you know, vegan lesbian, like, let’s throw a few other things in there. I’m atheist. I’m Jewish. Yes, I’m Jewish and atheist. I’m tattooed, you know, like I am all of all of the things that mainstream society says is going against the grain is pretty much for the most part, how I live my life. I mean, there are ways that I’ve completely assimilated as well. But I think that that’s a core principle of why I’m an activist personally, which isn’t to say you have to be different to be an activist though I do think that people who are used to sort of going against the grain might be more easily influenced by the idea of activism, because they don’t really care about being seen as the odd one out not sure if that answers your question or not.

Ana  

Yeah, it does. And I think what yeah, I think that almost in a way, we’re talking about something which you talk about a lot as well, which is the the role of personal narrative in animal activism. Like why do you feel it’s important for activists to kind of invest in a personal narrative?

Jasmin  

I think that’s another thing that you and I have in common. I mean, not to speak for you. But I believe it’s something we’ve chatted about before the role of personal narrative, I think is very, very important in our advocacy, whether we’re advocating for the animals and or any other marginalized community. And the reason why is because inherently people approach that kind of thing with curiosity, not defensiveness. So even with both of my books, actually, but most relatedly, my memoir, people read it with curiosity of reading someone else’s story, they didn’t quite realize that they were learning about the dairy industry, through my eyes as I was talking about it, or learning about the connections between feminism and let’s say, dairy or eggs, through my uncovering of it, by the end of the book, they have all this information. But just like, how we look at art, with, you know, interest and curiosity, we are going to take it in on a much more open-hearted level, I believe, and I think a lot of other social justice movements have used personal narrative way more than ours has. Its personal narrative is one of the reasons I love to edit. It’s one of the reasons I love to interview people, I’m sure that the same was true for you, you get to help people find a way to really connect with their truth and tell their story. And that story ultimately, is going to reach someone else.

Ana  

Exactly. And one of the things that always concerns me, or doesn’t concern me, that I question I guess, is, sometimes when we as individuals go too far down the line of like, inward-looking and kind of self-work, like sometimes you end up putting yourself in, you know, an echo chamber and kind of putting yourself in a situation where you can’t necessarily understand the others around you. Like, I guess it’s that line of like, how much inward-work do you do? And how much outward-work do you do? How are the two related like, you know, do you think it’s vital to kind of understand yourself and your own kind of personal journey, before being able to understand and interact with others and empathise with others?

Jasmin  

That’s a really good question. I have spent so many nights thinking about that question, like, what comes first? And I don’t have the answer, ultimately. But I will say as you learn more about yourself, as we learn more about ourselves, I think our activism becomes stronger. However, I don’t think we need to wait until we have really figured it out. Because when have we figured it out, we’re always evolving, so I do think it kind of goes hand in hand. And it does touch on you know, radical self-care as well. I hate the word self-care, but it does touch on taking care of ourselves as a way of really touching base with our most primal needs, which are like community and feeling sated by the things you eat. By the experiences you have feeling. Like you have downtime, and you’re not constantly like in this adrenaline rush. These are ways that we not only will learn about ourselves, but they’re also ultimately ways that we will become stronger activists. So I think it’s one in the same and we should be well should is also a funny word, isn’t it? But ideally, I think we are moving toward both introspection and passionate expression outwardly.

Ana  

So it’s a really good answer. And yeah, it’s always like that kind of chicken and egg. Classic conundrum. But yeah, we’ve already touched on this, and you and I have spoken about this before, but as an individual, you bridge, your experiences seem to bridge so many different fields and so many different different social justice causes. And, you know, they do overlap, and they are all, you know, for the most part, they’re very connected, but at the same time, some social justice movements, do argue, I mean, the animal protection included, do you feel that focusing on intersectionality actually dilutes the individual social justice mission. I’m curious to get your take on that.

Jasmin  

Yes, all of the above. I think it’s all true. I, first of all, personally, I don’t mind when people use the word intersectionality. But I personally don’t use it. I’ll just say like, the I’m not even sure I would define it. But if I were to, I would say like the overlapping connections or something like that, like, which maybe this is just semantics. But I do think that like, because intersectionality was ultimately coined by a Black woman to describe that experience. It’s possible that people would think It was sort of co opted, especially by, you know, white vegans. I guess ultimately, it’s not I’m not trying to be like the PC police, because I also think that it’s a beautiful word and words can evolve. And I think that it does kind of get to the bottom line of what we are talking about ultimately, which I’m clunkily saying is the overlap and connections between marginalized communities and a liberation mindset is a much longer winded way of saying intersectionality, I guess. But I think that maybe what you’re reacting to, and what other people react to with me personally, is that I do sit on, you know, a sort of a crossroads between a few different types of social justice, which, you know, being a queer person. And, obviously, being a feminist, I think that ultimately does put me in a in a unique position, I also came to the animal rights movement, by way of the AIDS awareness movement and the LGBTQ movement. And so that has always informed my activism. And then, as a white person living in white supremacy culture, obviously, I’m an anti-racist. And that does kind of touch on why we we collaborated on the anti-racism project, which I’m sure we’ll talk about. And so for me, personally, I think I’m just living it by waking up in the morning, I’m sort of living intersectionally, to use that word. And it is to me one in the same if I’m going to advocate for justice for animals, of course, I’m advocating for justice for humans as well, because there are so many humans who are exploited in like, a variety of ways, within animal agriculture and animal exploitation in general, from the workers to the people who are suffering due to climate change to the the issues of world hunger, these to be a vegan, arguably, is to inherently be an intersectional advocate, if we’re looking at it that way. And I do think it’s possible that as the idea of social justice becomes sort of broader and I’m giving you just my opinion now, I’ve noticed a lot of younger people who I know like Gen Z, they’re vegan, because they’re just social justice people. Like, it’s not like they necessarily know what a gestation crate, is it like I do, or that’s how I, you know, came into the animal rights movement, really learning the issues. I’m not sure everyone knows that, does that take away from animal rights? Well, at the end of the day, they’re not eating them. So it’s great. I mean, I think it’s great. And it’s possible that the actual animals are remaining an absent reference to us, Carol Adams is a turn of phrase for a moment.

Ana  

So it’s a really, really nice way to look at it, and really I guess it’s the nuances within all these different social justice movements, and like you say, that overlaps within them. But thinking, not just about, you know, why the talking about the connectedness and these issues within animal rights is important. But I also think it’s important in journalism, like I feel that the stories that we cover and the stories that we tell, we should be exploring, you know, a more holistic approach, we should be referring to animals using, you know, the correct pronouns, we should be talking about issues that are complex in a complex way, instead of trying to just, you know, I guess this makes me kind of sound, archaic, whatever. But you know, that the kind of the clickbait headlines that just kind of try and boil everything down to just one simple thing, I feel that one of the things that we really want to work on at Sentient Media is embracing more of the nuance and more of the kind of the grey areas and embracing the connectedness and the overlapping. I guess the overlapping concerns and the overlapping areas between all of these different movements.

Jasmin   

I completely agree. I think that that is the value that the journalist brings to the story, because the journalist is speaking from their perspective, and while even if they’re just reporting, they’re inherently coming from their perspective, I would say maybe, I think you know a lot more about that than I do, but from my possibly ignorant vantage point, that’s how it seems. I also think that it brings up interesting questions. I had a discussion with Carrie Hamilton, who’s also in London, and I interviewed her for our podcast for Our Hen House, and she talked about what you just mentioned about using the proper pronouns for animals but we allowed it to kind of bring us into this discussion of like, yes, but gender is a social construct. So we are kind of still working within that social construct when we attribute like he or she to an animal. This isn’t necessarily something I think should be written about for like the Wall Street Journal, because I would imagine it wouldn’t be taken well by the general public. But I do find it kind of fascinating to explore personally, and I do agree with you that it is the nuances the way we’re referring to the animals, not as it because they are individuals calling them individuals, even in an article that you’re writing for The Wall Street Journal, that’s the way that shifts happen slowly.

Ana  

Exactly. That’s exactly it. And I think that, yeah, you know, she, he, they, whatever we’re doing, we’re acknowledging that they are an individual, and they’re not an IT, as you say, there are certain publications that even within their editorial standards, so they use the pronoun, if the gender of the animal is known. And even within, by their own kind of definition, you can read articles on the site, and they don’t do that. They’re actually still using it, even if it’s, you know, even if they’re at vet records and everything like that to attribute a gender. But yeah, I feel like that would be a really good, you know, it’s an example of the kind of insidious exploitative views of or, you know, the insidious kind of bad views of animals that go throughout the media, but I think it like kind of going back to what we’re talking about with, you know, judgement and preconceptions and pigeonholing the media, obviously, plays this role in perpetuating extremes. And, you know, does the opposite of what we’re talking about, does the opposite of actually kind of drawing attention to nuance it widens the gap between the different ways of thinking, and in your life, obviously, you will come across a lot of individuals with polar opposite views to you. So, I was wondering,, how do you handle it when people come at you with, you know, very, very different views, given that you’ve got this, you know, wonderful approach to judgement. It must be hard online on social media and things like that to, to be able to have kind of more complex conversations.

Jasmin  

Yeah, definitely. It’s one of the reasons I’m most interested in podcasting, and in writing books, because you don’t get that same sort of knee jerk response that you get if you’re blogging or, you know, writing an article. As a writer, one of my outlets has become my substack, which is my newsletter. And it’s Jasminsinger.substack.com, as a shameless plug, and there’s no ‘e’ on Jasmin, blame my mother. Anyway. The reason why I like Substack is because it’s an opt in community. So the people who are going to comment are going to be approaching it with curiosity. And since there’s so much as you mentioned, earlier, clickbait out there, the vast majority of people aren’t reading the article, I just wrote something for Yahoo Lifestyle for their on Earth series, which is their environmental series, and the editor who wrote the title came up with a very clickbaity title, I was like, Ooh, I don’t know if I could share it when I saw the title. And I think that ultimately the comments that it did kind of inspire were ugly, because most people didn’t read it. So when it comes to online, I try really hard to stay away from it. I don’t always succeed. And if it’s in person, I think people, for the most part are a tiny little bit more respectful in person. I mean, maybe not always, but like, people are like, a billion times more jerky online, than they’re going to be up there in front of you. And I’ll try and approach conversations with curiosity. And then ultimately, I know when to walk away. I am a very sensitive person and I know that about myself and so sometimes I just have to like you know, leave the conversation, leave the room. I’m not always going to put myself in the crossfire.

Ana  

Yeah, that’s really good advice. Knowing when to walk away. Just switching gears a little bit. You mentioned your journey into veganism. You touched on that a little bit, but I’m curious like what what did you want to be when you were a little kid like what did little Jasmin want to be?

Jasmin  

I wanted to be an actor and a writer.

Ana  

Nice, so you did it!

Jasmin  

I don’t make a living acting, but I do find that they’re frequently the same muscle for me personally. So especially because I’ve gotten into fiction writing lately, and I feel like my fiction writing is directly tied too I’d to acting for me it’s like just like really getting in the mind of these characters’ world, allowing myself to explore social justice through fiction, which I find a safer, more open ended way to do it. It’s been really revelatory for me like I absolutely love writing fiction. So that’s one of the books I’m trying to sell right now is a YA book that is focused on various social justice issues and of course, veganism as a backdrop of it.

Ana  

That was very exciting. I’m looking forward to reading that. Is this your first fiction thing to be published as a book?

Jasmin  

Yeah. If I get it published. Yes, it’ll be in my first published fiction. When I was in college, I went for theatre, and I wound up writing a lot of plays, that my school would perform. But it was like, kind of before people were recording things. I mean, people were recording things, but it was like a big to do. So I don’t have any of them. I don’t even know where the written versions of them are. Which is really sad for me. But yes, that will be my first fiction. And like, if I can wave a magic wand, that would become my focus.

Ana  

Wow, that’s pretty cool. And I wanted to also like go into the work we did together on this one particular project, which was the anthology with Encompass, “Anti-racism in animal advocacy, igniting cultural transformation”, which was published by Lantern Books last year. And you worked, you know, working with you was amazing, and working with the team at Encompass and all of the writers, and you’ve worked so hard on that series, you put in so much time and energy, like, why was it so important to you to get that content out into the world?

Jasmin  

That, by the way, was the collaboration for the ages, like that’s how you collaborate, you know, like, I came up with this idea at an Encompass anti-racism training that I was attending for the animal advocates who were talking through their stories of how they had benefited from white supremacy culture. In some cases, it was a white activist, and how they wanted to hold themselves accountable, especially like relearning things that they had absorbed as children. And I thought we had to, put this right this out, you know, so we decided to put together an essay, a digital essay collection, that’s when I approached you, and Sentient Media and your incredible team published it online. So it was a terrific collaboration. The day, the first one went up, which I think was my article or my introduction, Lantern had approached us about turning it into an anthology. And then we re-edited all of the pieces for that for the book. I was volunteering, I wanted to do what I feel I do well, which is connect people and work with people and telling their stories to allow this book to be out in the world so that others can recognise their own stories within the stories of these animal advocates and, and the book that exists in the online collection that exists as well and the audio version of it, which Our Hen House wound up publishing last year, these are beautiful, beautiful ways of taking in the stories and even though Encompass sadly, has closed its doors. I’m thrilled that this book still exists.

Ana  

Yeah, for sure. And also the community that was built by Encompass continues to live in APEX advocacy, right. So that yeah, it is sad news about Encompass, but I’m excited for what that community is going to continue to do for sure. I’m thinking about the work and the energy that you put into that and then all of the other projects and things that you’re working on at that time. I remember thinking even then, you know, wow, like Jasmin has so much going on. And every time I talk to her she’s so engaged and so smart. And you show up, you’re there and then I see you like you know, on the Instagram lives at night and I’m like, wow, she’s still going, you know, how I know you don’t like the word self-care. But how do you, let’s call it you know, maintaining a healthy kind of work life balance like do you differentiate between work and you know, personal life or is it all just kind of one thing because it’s your passions?

Jasmin  

I would say there’s a big a big grey area. There are a lot of things that I just really enjoy doing that you might say is work and I say isn’t sometimes it’ll turn the corner and become work, but I also go bike riding and I’m not really thinking about work when I’m bike riding, but I will stop and look at a bird. You know, I love looking at birds and, and just taking in the nature and that, of course will bring my mind back to work. But in general, I enjoy playing, you know, whatever that means I painted a rock the other day with my mom when I was visiting my niece, we all painted rocks, I loved that, I love doing crafts. I love getting outside. And so I think I have a pretty healthy work life balance. I think that the outside world thinks that I shouldn’t admit this, but like maybe thinks that I work harder than I do. I’ve also put my life together in a way that like I have a bit of a flexible schedule, so I can sleep it. And so if you’re seeing me working late it might be because I slept in that morning. So I kind of liked that flexibility to some extent.

Ana  

Yeah, that’s so true. And I think now more than ever, like employers are being more flexible with their team, you know, if you’re not freelance or whatever. I hope it’s kind of being built in to job roles now more flexibility. Certainly, it’s certainly in Sentient Media, like, Yeah, we’re flexible. I mean, we’re international as well. So when you’re working with people across like so many different time zones, like, you have to understand there’s a bit of a delay when you’re trying to do communications. One of the other things I really like about you, but you’ve just touched on, you know, like painting and I remember it was you I think that recommended the paint by numbers stuff I recommend not to me.

Jasmin  

Yeah, did you do it? 

Ana  

No, but I did buy it for somebody. But I would like to do it. I’m just working on reading. I actually just took a holiday and I read like four books. And you know, I just I’m excited about kind of trying to carve out time to just, you know, reignite my reading brain, like book reading, you know. So what are the things that I’ve noticed that you do, but I haven’t seen you do is stand-up comedy, are you still doing that?

Jasmin  

Well, that was a little curtailed with COVID I was living in West Hollywood before before COVID And then at the beginning of COVID, and moved out here to back to the East Coast, in the middle of COVID. But so not really. But I do think that humor is extremely important. And I hope that when people listen to Our Hen House, they laugh. I hope that when people read my essays or my newsletter, I hope that I bring them a chuckle. So I’m not really doing stand up right now per se, but you never know the nights still young. 

Ana  

Yes, I want to I want to see your stand-up. You’ll just have to do like a private gig for me. And speaking of your newsletter, I know you’ve mentioned it, obviously, we’ll put we’ll put a link in. But the one that I got this week was “Where do I find faith as an atheist?” And you pointed out obviously, you grew up Jewish, and I’ve heard you speak about that as well. But yeah, could you elaborate, like how do you define faith?

Jasmin  

This is funny because my friend Mike Kaplan, who’s an actual comedian, after he read that he was like, You should coin you should write “faiththeist atheist”. And I loved that I thought that was so cute. I do have faith, I consider it a core value of mine, and I am an atheist. So I find faith in the unfolding of time, I find faith in science, I find faith in the understanding that a lot of my hurried nature is related to my anxiety, and that there’s actually a lot of power in pausing, I find faith in knowing how things evolve, and knowing that I don’t actually know how they will evolve, I can take some guesses. But I’m constantly surprised. I find faith in looking around at the facts of like, let’s say the longevity of a friendship. You know, if I’m having an argument with someone or a disagreement, or if we’re not connected, I have faith, it’ll shift because we’ve been friends for, you know, 10 years or whatever. So I think this directly ties into the work I’ve done on 12 steps. And there is kind of a mentality within 12 steps that if you turn your will over to a higher power, and it doesn’t have to be God, then you will be able to sort of let go of the illusion of control and embrace more of the natural unfolding of things. So that certainly doesn’t mean complacency. I don’t, I generally don’t do complacency. I’m like allergic to it. I think that the two things can be hand in hand, feeling like you can let go of things and also remaining extremely passionate and in some cases monomaniacal about are trying to achieve liberation.

Ana  

So, a lot of food for thought that. Do you draw a line between like hope and faith? Or do you kind of put them together?

Jasmin  

That is an excellent question. I do draw a line, I love this question. Hope is something I opt into hope is something I choose, I very infrequently feel it organically. But I consider myself a hopeful person. And that’s because I have decided I’m going to be a hopeful person. Where as faith is something that I consider much more organic, it’s something that I think already exists, and it exists on the other side of my clamoring or my anxiety. And so I consider them very different.

Ana  

So you feel like you you control, hope, your hope? Not everyones. 

Jasmin  

Right. I wish I controlled everything. I mean, that is ultimately what I would love. No I do, I think I can show my own hope. And you know, how many people right now knowing the suffering that’s going on in the world, knowing how, how tense it is everywhere? Wake up and feel like, “Oh, I’m hopeful today”, I would say some people probably do. And I have to be like, Okay, I’m gonna choose hope. Because doing Our Hen House for the last, you know, 12 and a half years, I have a lot of reasons to believe that there are incredible people fighting for what’s right. And they’re not going to be irrelevant as we work toward various types of liberation. So I find hope in that and I have faith that the the right outcome will come. I don’t know what that is. It’s possible. I mean, now I’m getting dark, but it’s possible. The right outcome is no more humans, I don’t know. But the world will survive, just humans will, there’ll be some roaches and pigeons hanging out, you know, I don’t want that to happen because of the animals who will die as a result of what humans have done. But I know that ultimately, I can’t wave that magic wand. Because if I could, I would have a long time ago, all I can do is show up today, choosing to be hopeful. And having faith in what will unfold

Ana  

That’s really interesting. I haven’t really kind of dissected it like that before. So yeah, I appreciate you taking the time to talk that through. I mean, we spoke about your podcast, you were kind enough to have me as a guest a while ago, and we spoke a little bit there about behavioral change, and what prompts people to make these individual changes. What do you think can help inspire people to extend compassion to, you know, to fellow human animals, and then also to non-human animals?

Jasmin  

Well, first of all, I hope that you put a link to that episode in the show notes, because you were extraordinary on it. And I love you as the interviewer, but I want your listeners to have access to your brain and the way I did that time. So how do I feel people will will change, I think that people are ultimately self involved. And I think that therefore, what will result in shifts will be convenience and accessibility, affordability, and trends. So I think it’s pretty shallow. Ultimately, I do think that there are a lot of exceptions to that, like maybe let’s say I’m making this up. But let’s say one in every 100 people will make shifts because of a drive to be more compassionate or more kind or something like that. But I think the vast majority of people need it to be in front of them. And by it, I mean, an alternative to the suffering, it needs to become mainstream, and it is it needs to become on every menu, and it is it needs to become affordable. We’re going to have to get over the ick factor of cultivated protein. I think we shift quickly as a society. And so therefore, I think the answer to your question is that they’re not necessarily going to be like I’m going to be more compassionate today. Wow, I suddenly really care about that pig that I was going to eat in my bacon. They’re going to be like, Oh, interesting. I saw on the today’s show that there’s, you know, these benefits to eating plant-based protein. I guess I’ll get that bacon instead. And it’ll probably begin and end there.

Ana  

Yeah, I think you’re absolutely right. And I know there’s data to back that up as well in the sense of like the primary reasons that people are going vegan are for their own health benefit, which is great. Any reason anybody decides to consume less meat I think is great. I saw a piece the other day about octopus…octopi? And it was basically explaining, you know, the complexity of their brains that relate, you know, the similar DNA is to humans and all of this stuff, and somebody had posted “Oh, okay, I’m never eating octopus again”, because they didn’t realize this stuff. And it’s like, it wasn’t an article. You know, I know, we have factory farms currently being built in Spain that people are working against for octopus factory farms, you know, which people are trying to prevent, and the article wasn’t setting out to, you know, make that case, it was just like, look, let’s look at how amazing an octopus is. And I feel like that kind of creating of curiosity and sparking of interest. There is also something that can help, but ultimately, it came down to I feeling like that argument came down to that. Which again, is that kind of self-centered approach. And I feel like it would be remiss of me not to ask you, as you have this beautiful, beautiful background. You know, you have this book you it’s been out for how long now? Like, is it a year?

Jasmin  

Fabulous Vegan? In December, it’ll be two years. So a year and a half. I know. Time is weird Ana.

Ana  

That has messed with my brain. I don’t believe I can still picture my team, because you sent out packages, obviously, I’m in the UK, you sent out packages, with all these amazing doughnuts and everything, and I was sitting here so jealous. So how is the book been received? How is it going?

Jasmin  

So far Fabulous Vegan? I would say, I would say it’s okay. We were lucky enough to have a very big publisher. It’s an imprint of Hachette, it’s called Hachette Go. And that’s more for their kind of giftee, or design driven books. I think that one of the sort of identity crises that the book has is that the world sort of took it in as a cookbook, and it’s not a cookbook. So the reason why I think that that might have been ultimately bit us in the ass a little bit, is that it’s not going to hold its own on a cookbook shelf. And so if people are buying it because it has a recipe at the end of each chapter, which, lucky for you, I didn’t write the recipes. I wrote the manifesto, which is the rest of the book, it’s every single, you know, argument for veganism in what I think is a kind of funny way, a accessible way. It’s like, it gets into every argument someone might have for why they might not go vegan, and it sort of turns that on its head, what I learned from it, and I’m thrilled that the book exists and that it’s out there, I really am. But I what I learned from it is that the world isn’t necessarily going to be like, ready to learn about some of the issues that we explored in it. But if they pick it up for the recipies, I’m very happy. And I’m probably painting a more dour picture. It’s it. Okay. I would say I don’t think it blew me away. But I’m not disappointed either. And I hope that it’s the type of book that continues on in the ether.

Ana  

Yeah, I do too. And I love I just love the design and the presentation of it, and the funness that’s in there. I think that that’s something that, you know, you’ve touched on already, this idea that of, like, things can be so dark and so depressing, and can just drain you out. And if you don’t have a little bit of humor and a little bit of lightness about things, then, you know, we’re just gonna go on a downward spiral. 

Jasmin  

it’s also it’s important for us, the writers, the activists, the person behind the effort, it’s not just about how people are going to take it in. It’s also about the expression of it is the expression of it something that is sustainable for us. So I appreciate that you’ve called it fun. I like that.

Ana  

Well, I mean, I love talking to you, I could just keep talking to you for you know, forever. And I’m sure you know, we’ll chat again soon. But where  should we send our listeners and viewers to find you, I’ll put all of the links in the notes.

Jasmin  

Yes, thank you so much. Again, Jasmin with no E. I would say if you haven’t subscribed to Our Hen House, definitely subscribe. You’re getting a kind of complementary show to the Sentient Media Podcast, I think that there are similarities but I think it’s interesting because we’re coming ultimately from different, you know, different perspectives, different locations. in different countries, different beats for the show. So definitely subscribe to Our Hen House and Animal Law Podcast. And if you want to find me online, you can go to either my website jasminsinger.com, which will take you to my newsletter or follow me on Instagram at Jasmin Singer Author.

Ana  

Amazing. Thank you so much for your time today. I appreciate it. So massively, you’re an absolute inspiration and you excite me and made me laugh every time I’m on your Instagram and every time we talk, so thank you.

Jasmin  

Thank you, Anna. I’m a big fan of yours as long as it’s really fun. I am so excited about your podcast.